The Soapbox

CMUHoo

Joined: 09/19/2008 Posts: 3846
Likes: 6800


I have read the readout (which BTW is not a verbatim transcript)


There is no actual transcript, but rather a listener's notes of what occurred during the call. See this link for an analysis on why what was written in the readout was not an exoneration: https://www.politico.com/news/2019/09/25/donald-trump-ukraine-call-analysis-000039 You also had testimony from people such as Alexander Vindman, Marie Yovanovitch, and others during the impeachment hearings who explained in detail why what occurred over many months was not normal or ok. The phone call was bad, but what took place with Giuliani in Ukraine was occurring over many months and very much not ok.

You are incorrect on what Biden did in Ukraine. His actions were completely in keeping with US and EU policy goals at the time. The prosecutor was removed because he wouldn't investigate corruption in Ukraine aggressively enough. I won't condone Hunter Biden trading on the family name, but Joe Biden did nothing wrong in that affair. Investigations have consistently cleared his name on this. See: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2019/10/03/what-really-happened-when-biden-forced-out-ukraines-top-prosecutor/3785620002/

The claim that the Capitol incursion is an Antifa false flag operation is a new low on your disinformation, but has also been debunked: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/factcheck/2021/01/07/fact-check-false-claim-facial-recognition-antifa-capitol/6580679002/

You note that many folks were let in by police, which is most definitely not ok. However, there was also a policeman killed and others injured by rioters.

I specifically didn't use the term insurrection because I think subverting is a better term. However, I have no doubt that some people in the crowd thought they were participating in an insurrection to prevent the transfer of power. Nonetheless, you're both overstating how ok his speech was on January 6 and completely ignoring all of Trump's actions before Jan 6. His speech included the paragraph (see https://www.rev.com/blog/transcripts/donald-trump-speech-save-america-rally-transcript-january-6):

"Our media is not free. It’s not fair. It suppresses thought. It suppresses speech, and it’s become the enemy of the people. It’s become the enemy of the people. It’s the biggest problem we have in this country. No third world countries would even attempt to do what we caught them doing and you’ll hear about that in just a few minutes. Republicans are constantly fighting like a boxer with his hands tied behind his back. It’s like a boxer, and we want to be so nice. We want to be so respectful of everybody, including bad people. We’re going to have to fight much harder and Mike Pence is going to have to come through for us. If he doesn’t, that will be a sad day for our country because you’re sworn to uphold our constitution. Now it is up to Congress to confront this egregious assault on our democracy. After this, we’re going to walk down and I’ll be there with you. We’re going to walk down. We’re going to walk down any one you want, but I think right here. We’re going walk down to the Capitol, and we’re going to cheer on our brave senators, and congressmen and women. We’re probably not going to be cheering so much for some of them because you’ll never take back our country with weakness. You have to show strength, and you have to be strong."

The transcript includes the word "fight" 23 times. Yes he said to be peaceful, but he had also told the Proud Boys to "stand back and stand by" during the debate. It was a lovely game of cat and mouse so that you can say he wanted peaceful protest while I can say he wanted a siege. But that's not actually central to the argument.

Central to the argument is that every President before Trump has conceded once the outcome of the election was no longer in doubt. They haven't claimed the election was rigged or stolen or talked about the Vice President acting to keep them in power or tried to convince people to "find" votes that aren't there. They haven't tried to deceive their supporters with lies to generate a huge rally focused on overturning the election while the electoral votes are tabulated in Congress. That's subverting the election. It led to what you might call an insurrection, which Trump was reportedly thrilled about. If you seriously believe that what happened in the Capitol would have occurred if Trump conceded on Nov 7 when the election was called for Biden or if he had conceded after the electoral votes were confirmed in Dec or if he hadn't promoted a rally the day that Congress met then I don't really know what to say.

(In response to this post by Los Angeles Hoo)

Posted: 02/05/2021 at 5:37PM



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Current Thread:
 
  
Why do so many people believe in Donald Trump? -- Fuzzy Dunlop 02/05/2021 1:49PM
  Why do so many people believe in Biden and government -- TomKazanski 02/05/2021 4:30PM
  It's hilarious and telling that... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 6:45PM
  You haven't seen all those blue BBB hats? ** -- EspressHoo 02/05/2021 6:31PM
  Because he’s not DJT. -- Dudeman 02/05/2021 4:46PM
  A more pointed question... how many of you kooks believe that -- Capital City Hoo 02/05/2021 2:30PM
  Simply put... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 2:22PM
  Donald Trump normalized being a pussy in this country -- Capital City Hoo 02/05/2021 5:13PM
  Thanks. And you... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 4:41PM
  Lol ** -- HoosQ 02/05/2021 4:47PM
  Democrats on the board wished death on other posters -- TomKazanski 02/05/2021 4:54PM
  Well said. ** -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 4:43PM
  You two should get a room. ** -- SixerHoo 02/05/2021 4:26PM
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  Trump fights like hell for Trump. The rest of it, -- hoosnick 02/05/2021 3:49PM
  I left it off because I don't really care... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:09PM
  It cannot and will not be balanced until... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:27PM
  If your argument is that establishment R's are... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:56PM
  What about the other Rs? ** -- Plano Hoo 02/05/2021 4:02PM
  I think there is a contingent of... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 4:09PM
  Including the guy who promised he would ** -- HoodatB 02/05/2021 3:32PM
  Two points... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:39PM
  2) Defense spending --> billions ** -- HoodatB 02/05/2021 3:41PM
  Yes, that's the obvious one, but... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:48PM
  And the trade deficit? ** -- DTsBicep 02/05/2021 3:22PM
  The trade "deficit" per se... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:36PM
  What I mean is that... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:18PM
  Draining the swamp? Wrecking the media? -- HoodatB 02/05/2021 3:02PM
  Can’t help myself...point by point -- HoosInLondon? 02/05/2021 3:01PM
  Mike drop. :) ** -- Seattle .Hoo 02/05/2021 3:12PM
  I'm not ignoring it, I... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:58PM
  I dispute it because... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 5:07PM
  I did not say that the incursion was... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 6:43PM
  Such a fucking tool. ** -- WahooRQ 02/05/2021 3:29PM
  On the contrary. It was instructive and confirming too. -- Chuck Taylor 02/05/2021 3:17PM
  Good post... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:25PM
  LOL. Yes, I'm not surprised by... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 3:07PM
  😂 -- LonghornHokie 02/05/2021 2:58PM
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  Who said he was selfless?... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 2:59PM
  Yeah, well, who asked you? ** -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 4:01PM
  Again, I don't care... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 4:04PM
  I listed them in my original post. ** -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 4:10PM
  Ya missed Don's three biggest accomplishments; -- Lazarus 02/05/2021 2:42PM
  You miss the point... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 2:52PM
  Never say never......... -- Hoodafan 02/05/2021 2:50PM
  But as for his family??? ** -- HoosQ 02/05/2021 2:48PM
  Thank you. ** -- HoosQ 02/05/2021 2:41PM
  Faux outrage? Nah man -- Fuzzy Dunlop 02/05/2021 2:31PM
  Who is "they" in your subject line? -- Fuzzy Dunlop 02/05/2021 2:52PM
  Both of your premises are false... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 2:45PM
  God you are out to lunch ** -- WaxHoo 02/05/2021 3:07PM
  Seek help, man! ** -- TomGlansAski 02/05/2021 2:53PM
  The difference is that... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 2:34PM
  You misspelled delusional. -- BocaHoo91 02/05/2021 2:28PM
  Wow, I didn't realize how... -- Los Angeles Hoo 02/05/2021 2:55PM
  LOL- you're definitely good for a laugh these days. ** -- Capital City Hoo 02/05/2021 3:15PM
  LOL! I think so too! ** -- Shenhoo 02/05/2021 2:34PM
  Exactly right on your last line ** -- 81_Hokie 02/05/2021 2:29PM
  The bigger question: which response........ -- Cheesesteaker 02/05/2021 2:05PM
  Voodoo in his hair?🤷‍♂️ ** -- HiwasseeHoo 02/05/2021 2:02PM
  I think this is pretty close to what I think -- Fuzzy Dunlop 02/05/2021 2:02PM
  Because religion ** -- WaxHoo 02/05/2021 1:55PM
  Their brains are rotten, I tell you. Rotten. -- Brown Water 02/05/2021 1:55PM
  Abby Someone. ** -- Lazarus 02/05/2021 2:07PM
  Quick, give him a..... ** -- Brown Water 02/05/2021 2:08PM
  Cult just like People's Temple (Jim Jones) ** -- FfxStationHokie 02/05/2021 1:52PM

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