The Soapbox

Joined: 01/04/2001 Posts: 27049
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Venezuela works as an example of that.

Once the wealthiest country in S America, it is now a failed state with refugees streaming into Columbia and Brazil not unlike the situation here due to failed Central American states. Of course Venezuela would always feel the strain of a decline in the price of oil - they'd be hurting with or without Chavez dominating their recent past. If they hadn't been seduced by Chavez though, I think there is a decent chance they wouldn't be where we are today.

Today's nationalism is another side of the same coin though. Still all about govt fixing what ails us. Trump won because "only he can fix it". Duterte uses extra-judicial violence to "fix" the drug problem. I actually do agree with Dan that over-reliance on govt to just fix things while we, the people, just sit idly by like chicks with gaping mouths waiting for the next feeding, undermines democracy. Self rule requires self sufficiency to some degree. When we throw up our hands and leave it to some individual with the right kind of charisma to fix it, we're playing into the hands of a conman out for himself. Never, ever vote for anyone who says "only I can fix it".

Where I disagree with Dan is in his singling out of extreme lefty philosophies as the only way that happens. It has happened at least as frequently from far right philosophies. Nationalism, the current iteration, is at least as theoretically incompatible with democracy as socialism.

Real trick is - stay away from the extremes, period. Not just the extreme left.

(In response to this post by Chuck Taylor)

Posted: 07/08/2019 at 12:48PM

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Venezuelan special forces have killed >5000. Bust just because this shit -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 09:59AM

The word you are looking for is authoritarianism because.................. -- Chuck Taylor 07/08/2019 11:31AM

That democratic foundation disappears when everyone relies on govt -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 12:24PM

Wow! Sun Rand is alive, well & posting as HooDan. Hoo knew? ** -- WaxHoo 07/08/2019 12:49PM

It does? Maybe you can come with an example that meets your scenario,...... -- Chuck Taylor 07/08/2019 12:30PM

Venezuela works as an example of that. -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 12:48PM

No. Obviously wealth alone was not sufficient to avoid a slide into........ -- Chuck Taylor 07/08/2019 3:29PM

I basically agree, yet, a similar phenomenon allowed Trump to come to power -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 4:01PM

Yes on Venezuela ** -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 1:02PM

Not really, except in the sense that the government owns the company that -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 12:55PM

On a weighted basis, I don't think anything matters to Venezuela other -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 1:17PM

I don't think it is that simple. Perhaps go back and look at Chavez's rise -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 1:23PM

It's definitely not that simple. Life was not hunky dory for everyone in -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 1:37PM

There are tons of similarities. Why I referenced "How Democracies Die." ** -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 1:40PM

Yes poor management, something endemic to socialism, the govt doesn't know -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 1:07PM

AIG says hello. They went out of business, current appearances to the -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 1:22PM

Agreed on big bureaucracies & gubmint is the ultimate big bureaucracy** -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 1:25PM

Too simple Dan. The answer isn't "all govt" or "no govt". -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 1:39PM

Didn't mean to make it sound like all or nothing. Just that this country -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 1:53PM

Yeah, we all know how well big corporations are run. ** -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 1:15PM

Yes we do and i have far more choices when dealing w/ corporate businesses ** -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 1:21PM

In 2008, we didn't have too many choices. -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 1:29PM

So let's let them run government services, right? Like maybe prisons? Or -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 1:27PM

Got news for you, corporations make all the the stuff you use every day ** -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 1:41PM

Or small businesses. As they should. Nobody wants government owning the -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 1:48PM

I have no love for subsidies and bail outs. The DC establishment -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 2:12PM

I supported the bail outs. The opposite would've been catastrophic. They -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 2:30PM

Again I do think it’s authoritarianism that’s the problem ** -- 111Balz 07/08/2019 12:55PM

It always is. ** -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 1:07PM

"because of"? no, socialism is a tool of control ** -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 12:34PM

Give some examples of what you mean by that. ** -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 12:35PM

I agree. I will never embrace socialism as a governing system. -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 12:12PM

Well documented in the book "How Democracies Die." ** -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 11:33AM

Maybe those 5000 were counter-revolutionaries and enemies of the State -- Wahoo Ron 07/08/2019 11:30AM

Yes, democratic socialism, but also including the disarming of society -- ryno hoo 07/08/2019 10:49AM

I'm betting you've never heard the term "peace zone" as it pertains to -- WahooRQ 07/08/2019 1:31PM

You can elect a socialist govt any time you like. But you'll have to -- TpkeHoo 07/08/2019 11:49AM

So...will we need to shoot the farmers after the last two -- Shenhoo 07/08/2019 12:00PM

Yeah Shen. We are a socialist nation. Now back to the woodshed. ** -- TpkeHoo 07/08/2019 12:02PM

Is the wealth distribution capitalistic? ** -- Shenhoo 07/08/2019 12:24PM

It's a shame that beautiful countries like Denmark, Sweden, Norway, Germany -- WahooRQ 07/08/2019 12:09PM

What does “socialism “ have to do with brutal dictatorship? ** -- WaxHoo 07/08/2019 10:27AM

Both terms can be equated to the same, scaring the stupid. ** -- HoosWillWin 07/08/2019 11:23AM

Its like pornography...you know it when you see it ** -- Tuckahokie 07/08/2019 10:47AM

And most people under 50 think of Danes with healthcare and parental leave, -- WahooRQ 07/08/2019 11:06AM

Denmark is NOT a socialist country. They are a capitalist country with high -- CharlestonSC 07/08/2019 12:19PM

BTW online service providers got started with a little government program -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 12:31PM

That's a fair point, but I also think if you offered a hypothetical union -- CharlestonSC 07/08/2019 12:36PM

It would also be a stupid offer. The internet is very analogous to the -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 12:40PM

I used to worry about wealthy people every day. So glad they got relief! ** -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 12:22PM

Nobody is suggesting wealthy people have it bad ... I'm suggesting Bernie -- CharlestonSC 07/08/2019 12:25PM

Yeah that's why I only listen to Republicans. No inflammatory rhetoric. All -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 12:29PM

Only serious policy proposals with real chances of becoming law get tossed -- WahooRQ 07/08/2019 12:45PM

The "free college" trope is nonsense. Also the Bern won't be the nominee. ** -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 12:47PM

Once all of the over 50 people die off the Brave Green New World can -- Tuckahokie 07/08/2019 11:09AM

No, you guys will stay out of touch but just become less and less a part -- WahooRQ 07/08/2019 11:12AM

You have a point...in another 10 years I will transition from net giver to -- Tuckahokie 07/08/2019 11:16AM

There are no fiscal conservatives today -- VaTechie 07/08/2019 11:47AM

You mean you don't support means testing welfare for wealthy seniors? How -- WahooRQ 07/08/2019 11:20AM

Complete control ** -- HokieDan95 07/08/2019 10:29AM

Total control & socialism are not necessarily synonymous ** -- WaxHoo 07/08/2019 10:31AM

Perhaps, but it is still tone-deaf to embrace the label ** -- Faz d. Hoo 07/08/2019 10:58AM

It's batshit crazy. When you think of those who do that, you have to -- hoolstoptheheels 07/08/2019 12:00PM

Less and less every year though, as the demographic changes and ironically -- southdenverhoo 07/08/2019 11:55AM

Agree, & that’s not 95’s point ** -- WaxHoo 07/08/2019 11:07AM

He doesn’t know what it means ** -- 111Balz 07/08/2019 10:38AM

They are for some, like Trumpies, especially for 2020 ** -- Hoo TV 07/08/2019 10:37AM

Violence and political unrest in South America? That's never happened -- Seattle .Hoo 07/08/2019 10:16AM